You say kinder, fairer. I say enlightenment. Hello, I'm Graham, and I'm new to your forum. I'm an older man. And I too am fed up with some older men.
First the trite: the facility conferred on mankind to "think", and thereby self-actualise, gave us the facility to strategise. So that is what we do. Many years ago, it was to figure out how to capture fish and meat, how to climb a tree to get fruit, etc.
Now we strategise also against each other and that probably makes us relatively unique in the community animals, like termites, ants, bees and the like. Those creatures all have their own functions and roles so that their communities are not overwhelmed or usurped by strategy.
Many of our human strategies are aimed at control of our fellow humans: even cornering a market, or just pointing a gun at them. The concept of control lets us imagine what absolute control would look like and there are those who would pursue that to its natural end. Those who feel restraint in pursuit of absolute control manifest what Sara calls fairness and kindness, and what I call enlightenment. It is a virtue, or a weakness, according to your viewpoint, that is always present in a greater or lesser form (or is manifested to a group of general composition or of selected composition). Enlightenment is what gives us the rule of law. And enlightenment is what gives us fair application of the rule of law. Enlightenment is the virtue, or weakness, that ensures democracy remains true to its foundation of equality under a law that applies to all.
I think there is a way to procure enlightenment among men, generally, and older men, in particular, and I don't mean to be flippant: they must be gay. Homosexuals live under a system that, even in modern, western countries, is susceptible to tyranny at the hands of the self-appointed "normal". Gay men know what it is to be the subject of unfairness and unkindness. It is my posit that they are therefore, by their "unnatural nature" naturally enlightened.
Finally, I agree that women are given to possessing a nature that is kinder and fairer. Women will make greater endeavour to favour all their offspring equally. Men will tend to promote and nurture the favoured one, the strongest. However, I'd be interested to hear views on the extent to which women have a greater propensity for enlightenment than do men.
There is so much to think about here Graham! I'm interested in your definitions around enlightenment and strategy, and how interacts/works in tension with power/control. I wonder if, rather than women or men being more naturally inclined to enlightenment, as individuals we are all working towards (or away from) this point, but because of the way our gender defines how we live in and experience our culture (i.e. deprioritising women's rights) it might mean women, if taken as a whole group, are further along in their questioning and challenging of societal/cultural norms? I'm aware of how easy it is to trip up around generalisations so it's a challenging topic to discuss!
I agree with this: by being downtrodden, the woman is able to see the weaker party's viewpoint. Because she so often is.
Tomorrow I publish a paper on The Endless Chain in which I explore the Haitian (and French) national motto: liberté, égalité, fraternité. Plato identified the two fundaments of democracy as being freedom and equality, and concluded, as a result, that democracy was destined to failure. What he failed to incorporate into his thinking (now, that's going out on a limb!) was Robespierre's third element: fraternité. What I think he meant with that is not the classic translation of brotherhood, but an expression of what we call in English "enlightenment". The French term for enlightenment is "lumières" and the triplet of "freedom, equality, lights" sounds like an invitation to the dance. Which is why fraternité was chosen (my theory).
Democracy depends on freedom and equality, on that Plato was right. Without enlightenment (or brotherhood - the "love your neighbour as you would be loved" idea), democracy will not work, since people will deploy their freedom in order to procure inequality, not equality. With all three, fraternité, égalité and liberté, democracy will work. It will only work with all three.
Our question is "how do we procure enlightenment?" Gays and women?
Check out the Endless Chain tomorrow if that tempts you.
Sara, I agree 100% with everything you've said here...apart from the bit about your response during the conversation being a 4 out of 10, and that you'd made your husband a laughing stock 😊
Your husband sounds quite similar to mine. I'd like to think that there are millions of men like them out there. Men who are invested in pushing through those difficult interactions with us to find the gorgeous little nub of shared experience, understanding and connection at the end.
I know it's not all men. But it is a lot. Why do I get the impression from so many men that they literally hate our guts?? Like, hate. Proper despise. I have friends in relationships with men who clearly - I mean obviously, almost blatantly - hate them. For the most part, these women get a combination of placation, derision, dismissal, disrespect and at best a begrudging toleration from their partners. That's the basis for almost all of their relationships. Plus a bit of rough desire, I'd wager.
I've read a lot on misogyny and it's origins. I haven't really found anything that satisfactorily explains this hatred. It's so strange.
But all I can do is provide support to my friends if they ever decide to leave these men. I can keep trying to be an active opposer of the bullshit of patriarchy wherever I can. And I can continue on my path assuming that there are millions of men out there like our husbands, and keep collecting those men as allies.
Thanks so much for this thoughtful and detailed response Faye! I have witnessed the kind of toxic relationship you describe where the woman is continually belittled - it’s hard to know how much is personal and how much comes from the problems entrenched in our culture, but I have wondered if that kind of misogyny and hatred is rooted in deep fear and anger at women (in general, but taken out on those closest) who might dare to question aspects of male identity and superiority. It’s unbearable to witness, isn’t it, and I can’t believe how many of these individuals get into powerful positions in society, but I guess that kind of person will be naturally drawn to those places.
Thanks for playing the ball and not the man!
You say kinder, fairer. I say enlightenment. Hello, I'm Graham, and I'm new to your forum. I'm an older man. And I too am fed up with some older men.
First the trite: the facility conferred on mankind to "think", and thereby self-actualise, gave us the facility to strategise. So that is what we do. Many years ago, it was to figure out how to capture fish and meat, how to climb a tree to get fruit, etc.
Now we strategise also against each other and that probably makes us relatively unique in the community animals, like termites, ants, bees and the like. Those creatures all have their own functions and roles so that their communities are not overwhelmed or usurped by strategy.
Many of our human strategies are aimed at control of our fellow humans: even cornering a market, or just pointing a gun at them. The concept of control lets us imagine what absolute control would look like and there are those who would pursue that to its natural end. Those who feel restraint in pursuit of absolute control manifest what Sara calls fairness and kindness, and what I call enlightenment. It is a virtue, or a weakness, according to your viewpoint, that is always present in a greater or lesser form (or is manifested to a group of general composition or of selected composition). Enlightenment is what gives us the rule of law. And enlightenment is what gives us fair application of the rule of law. Enlightenment is the virtue, or weakness, that ensures democracy remains true to its foundation of equality under a law that applies to all.
I think there is a way to procure enlightenment among men, generally, and older men, in particular, and I don't mean to be flippant: they must be gay. Homosexuals live under a system that, even in modern, western countries, is susceptible to tyranny at the hands of the self-appointed "normal". Gay men know what it is to be the subject of unfairness and unkindness. It is my posit that they are therefore, by their "unnatural nature" naturally enlightened.
Finally, I agree that women are given to possessing a nature that is kinder and fairer. Women will make greater endeavour to favour all their offspring equally. Men will tend to promote and nurture the favoured one, the strongest. However, I'd be interested to hear views on the extent to which women have a greater propensity for enlightenment than do men.
There is so much to think about here Graham! I'm interested in your definitions around enlightenment and strategy, and how interacts/works in tension with power/control. I wonder if, rather than women or men being more naturally inclined to enlightenment, as individuals we are all working towards (or away from) this point, but because of the way our gender defines how we live in and experience our culture (i.e. deprioritising women's rights) it might mean women, if taken as a whole group, are further along in their questioning and challenging of societal/cultural norms? I'm aware of how easy it is to trip up around generalisations so it's a challenging topic to discuss!
I agree with this: by being downtrodden, the woman is able to see the weaker party's viewpoint. Because she so often is.
Tomorrow I publish a paper on The Endless Chain in which I explore the Haitian (and French) national motto: liberté, égalité, fraternité. Plato identified the two fundaments of democracy as being freedom and equality, and concluded, as a result, that democracy was destined to failure. What he failed to incorporate into his thinking (now, that's going out on a limb!) was Robespierre's third element: fraternité. What I think he meant with that is not the classic translation of brotherhood, but an expression of what we call in English "enlightenment". The French term for enlightenment is "lumières" and the triplet of "freedom, equality, lights" sounds like an invitation to the dance. Which is why fraternité was chosen (my theory).
Democracy depends on freedom and equality, on that Plato was right. Without enlightenment (or brotherhood - the "love your neighbour as you would be loved" idea), democracy will not work, since people will deploy their freedom in order to procure inequality, not equality. With all three, fraternité, égalité and liberté, democracy will work. It will only work with all three.
Our question is "how do we procure enlightenment?" Gays and women?
Check out the Endless Chain tomorrow if that tempts you.
Brilliant 👏🏻
Sara, I agree 100% with everything you've said here...apart from the bit about your response during the conversation being a 4 out of 10, and that you'd made your husband a laughing stock 😊
Your husband sounds quite similar to mine. I'd like to think that there are millions of men like them out there. Men who are invested in pushing through those difficult interactions with us to find the gorgeous little nub of shared experience, understanding and connection at the end.
I know it's not all men. But it is a lot. Why do I get the impression from so many men that they literally hate our guts?? Like, hate. Proper despise. I have friends in relationships with men who clearly - I mean obviously, almost blatantly - hate them. For the most part, these women get a combination of placation, derision, dismissal, disrespect and at best a begrudging toleration from their partners. That's the basis for almost all of their relationships. Plus a bit of rough desire, I'd wager.
I've read a lot on misogyny and it's origins. I haven't really found anything that satisfactorily explains this hatred. It's so strange.
But all I can do is provide support to my friends if they ever decide to leave these men. I can keep trying to be an active opposer of the bullshit of patriarchy wherever I can. And I can continue on my path assuming that there are millions of men out there like our husbands, and keep collecting those men as allies.
Thanks so much for this thoughtful and detailed response Faye! I have witnessed the kind of toxic relationship you describe where the woman is continually belittled - it’s hard to know how much is personal and how much comes from the problems entrenched in our culture, but I have wondered if that kind of misogyny and hatred is rooted in deep fear and anger at women (in general, but taken out on those closest) who might dare to question aspects of male identity and superiority. It’s unbearable to witness, isn’t it, and I can’t believe how many of these individuals get into powerful positions in society, but I guess that kind of person will be naturally drawn to those places.